Discussion:
Way to flatten nested \include's?
(too old to reply)
Javier Ruiz-Alma
2015-08-22 21:20:10 UTC
Permalink
I have code split into multiple files.
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested \include's and dump into new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the code (i.e. for debugging)?
Knute Snortum
2015-08-23 13:23:10 UTC
Permalink
I don't know of a LilyPond way to do this, but it would probably be a
fairly simple Python or Perl program.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)
Post by Javier Ruiz-Alma
I have code split into multiple files.
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested \include's and dump into
new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the code (i.e.
for debugging)?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Simon Albrecht
2015-08-23 16:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Knute Snortum
I don't know of a LilyPond way to do this, but it would probably be a
fairly simple Python or Perl program.
And wouldn’t it be user-friendly to provide such a script with our
default binaries, that is alongside convert-ly?

My 2cts, Simon
Post by Knute Snortum
Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)
On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Javier Ruiz-Alma
I have code split into multiple files.
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested \include's and
dump into new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version
of the code (i.e. for debugging)?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Javier Ruiz-Alma
2015-08-23 20:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Thanks both.



I doubt this feature is needed with any frequency. I happen to be
leveraging some orchestral LP code, which is proving quite convoluted to
trace with its many nested \include's and needs upgrading to current
version.

Some compile issues were reported as programming errors in 2.18.2 with no
clear indication of an associated line of code.



I'm down to one remaining error:

"programming error: Improbable offset for stencil: -inf staff space"



Seems to be associated with the following scheme function:



#(define (not-last-page layout props arg)

(if (not (book-last-page? layout props))

(interpret-markup layout props arg)

empty-stencil))



The function is used to generate custom on-the-fly footers for pages other
than first and last.



I need to create a separate tiny example to replicate and isolate where the
issue is coming from. I'll ask for help in a new thread.



Javier



From: Simon Albrecht [mailto:***@mail.de]
Subject: Re: Way to flatten nested \include's?



Am 23.08.2015 um 15:23 schrieb Knute Snortum:



I don't know of a LilyPond way to do this, but it would probably be a fairly
simple Python or Perl program.

And wouldn't it be user-friendly to provide such a script with our default
binaries, that is alongside convert-ly?

My 2cts, Simon








Knute Snortum

(via Gmail)



On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Javier Ruiz-Alma <***@ruiz-alma.com
<mailto:***@ruiz-alma.com> > wrote:

I have code split into multiple files.

Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested \include's and dump into
new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the code (i.e.
for debugging)?
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-23 23:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

Well, I am writing a delightful Scheme program to do the job right now, since I read your request. It may only be occasionally useful, but still worth having. You don;t have to use every tool in the workshop every day. Although it can be written in Python or any language, I felt Scheme is in the spirit of lilypond.

Andrew
Johan Vromans
2015-08-24 07:59:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:35:35 +1000
Post by Andrew Bernard
Although it can be written in Python or any language, I felt Scheme is in
the spirit of lilypond.
Scheme is for LP extenstions. This tool, being a standalone program, can
much better be written in Perl or Python.

-- Johan
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-24 23:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Johan,

Unless you enjoy writing Scheme as much as I do!

Scheme is perfectly fine for utility programs. It may be less maintainable for the hoi polloi - but then, the same can be said of llypond! :-)

While guile is aimed at being an extension language, don't forget that Scheme was taught at MIT for many, many years as the finest language to give students a deep insight into computing and computer science (refer SICP). [Sadly, they now teach Python instead. Real world practicality defeated beauty, insight, and elegance. :-(]

Andrew
Post by Johan Vromans
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:35:35 +1000
Post by Andrew Bernard
Although it can be written in Python or any language, I felt Scheme is in
the spirit of lilypond.
Scheme is for LP extenstions. This tool, being a standalone program, can
much better be written in Perl or Python.
-- Johan
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Michael Gerdau
2015-08-24 23:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
While guile is aimed at being an extension language, don't forget that
Scheme was taught at MIT for many, many years as the finest language to
give students a deep insight into computing and computer science (refer
SICP). [Sadly, they now teach Python instead. Real world practicality
defeated beauty, insight, and elegance. :-(]
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..

Anybody remembering APL ?

THAT is a beautiful language and most likely totally unuseable for the
vast majority of today's aspiring programmers :)

Kind regards,
Michael
--
Michael Gerdau email: ***@qata.de
GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-24 23:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Greetings Michael,

I used to use APL! Truly wonderful.

As to beauty, while subjective, amongst mathematicians at least there is a shared sense of the beautiful, and not purely personal taste. Scheme has the elegance mathematicians and computer scientists perceive. Nobody could say Python is _beautiful_. [I use Python, so I am not just bashing it.]

Andrew
Post by Michael Gerdau
Anybody remembering APL ?
PMA
2015-08-25 00:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Gerdau
Anybody remembering APL ?
APL was my main lang. for decades,
as is now its superset/descendant, J.

I've got weary trying to tell anybody
why. But the curious might take a
peek at

http://www.jsoftware.com/

Pete
David Kastrup
2015-08-25 04:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMA
Post by Michael Gerdau
Anybody remembering APL ?
APL was my main lang. for decades,
as is now its superset/descendant, J.
It is fitting that the language name is now a single character. I am
just surprised that it is one in the ASCII character set.
--
David Kastrup
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-25 05:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Very amusing!

But what about B, C, D, E, F, G, K (an APL derivative), L (several), R, S, T (a Scheme dialect) to name a few?

Seriously now, APL had special keyboards with the symbols which were wondrous to behold. And indeed, J was constructed in recognition of the divine impracticality of it:

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29

To avoid repeating the APL special-character problem, J requires only the basic ASCII character set, resorting to the use of the dot and colon as "inflections"[7] to form short words similar to digraphs. Most such "primary" (or "primitive") J words serve as mathematical symbols, with the dot or colon extending the meaning of the basic characters available. Additionally, many characters which might need to be balanced in other languages (such as [] {} "" `` or <>) are treated by J as stand-alone words or, when inflected, as single-character roots of multi-character words.

But in fact, we used to use APL with plain ASCII keyboards – worked just fine. And to be somewhat less Off Topic, the purpose of our using APL was for early research and development in computer music and synthesis software at The University of Melbourne here in Australia. APL class languages are particularly nicely suited to algorithmic music composition work.

Andrew



On 25/08/2015 14:28, "David Kastrup" <lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=***@gnu.org on behalf of ***@gnu.org> wrote:

It is fitting that the language name is now a single character. I am
just surprised that it is one in the ASCII character set.
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-25 05:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Before we all get booted off for being OT, here’s quicksort in J, using a concept called tacit programming:

quicksort=: (($:@(<#[), (=#[), $:@(>#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1<#)

Truly beautiful, in all seriousness. This is not a joke! :-)

Andrew
Johan Vromans
2015-08-25 07:34:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:29:56 +1000
It's hard to believe that people only complained about Perl being line
noise...

-- Johan
Jacques Menu
2015-08-25 16:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Hello Michæl,

In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols altogether) does.
A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that… but it took me two and a half hours to find out! »
And teacher answers: « Well, it took me two hours to write! »

In a review on languages in the Communications of the ACM a long time ago, each language was described by a caption and a short paragraph. Sample captions:
APL : I can read hieroglyphs too.
Prolog : If Prolog is the answer, then what was the question? (Don’t misunderstand me though, I loved this language…).

JM
Post by Michael Gerdau
Post by Andrew Bernard
While guile is aimed at being an extension language, don't forget that
Scheme was taught at MIT for many, many years as the finest language to
give students a deep insight into computing and computer science (refer
SICP). [Sadly, they now teach Python instead. Real world practicality
defeated beauty, insight, and elegance. :-(]
Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..
Anybody remembering APL ?
THAT is a beautiful language and most likely totally unuseable for the
vast majority of today's aspiring programmers :)
Kind regards,
Michael
--
GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Werner LEMBERG
2015-08-25 17:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Menu
In a review on languages in the Communications of the ACM a long
time ago, each language was described by a caption and a short
APL : I can read hieroglyphs too.
Prolog : If Prolog is the answer, then what was the question?
LOL! Can you give a reference to this review?


Werner
Johan Vromans
2015-08-26 09:58:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
Post by Jacques Menu
In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
Well, it took me two hours to write! »
I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.

For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it, checked
manually, proved its correctness (I was educated by EWD) and then delivered
it at the computer department. APL wouldn't have stand a chance in that
environment.

I did like the language, in a peculiar way.

-- Johan
David Kastrup
2015-08-26 11:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johan Vromans
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
Post by Jacques Menu
In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
Well, it took me two hours to write! »
I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.
For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it,
You poor backwater guys. Our card punchers printed a human-readable
version at the top of the card. And since the line printers were under
the auspices of the system operators, one would not have wanted to wait
for the printouts of a listing. I mean, in that case you'd have just
run the program instead and waited for the printouts of the run. Or
more likely, the post-mortem-dump.

If you were lucky.

Still have a COMPASS manual around. Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.
--
David Kastrup
Jacques Menu
2015-08-26 13:30:52 UTC
Permalink
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to computer science?

JM
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Johan Vromans
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
Post by Jacques Menu
In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
Well, it took me two hours to write! »
I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.
For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it,
You poor backwater guys. Our card punchers printed a human-readable
version at the top of the card. And since the line printers were under
the auspices of the system operators, one would not have wanted to wait
for the printouts of a listing. I mean, in that case you'd have just
run the program instead and waited for the printouts of the run. Or
more likely, the post-mortem-dump.
If you were lucky.
Still have a COMPASS manual around. Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.
--
David Kastrup
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
David Kastrup
2015-08-26 13:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?
5 forks.
--
David Kastrup
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-26 13:34:40 UTC
Permalink
I am older and know the answer. Am I eligible?

Andrew
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to computer science?
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-26 13:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!

Andrew
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to computer science?
Martin Tarenskeen
2015-08-26 13:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
I looked it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
Post by Andrew Bernard
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to computer science?
--
MT
Jacques Menu
2015-08-26 15:13:13 UTC
Permalink
So I owe you 1€: what is you IBAN?

JM
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
Post by Andrew Bernard
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to computer science?
--
MT_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
David Kastrup
2015-08-26 15:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
Seriously? My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades. And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter). He still
does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and
articles a few decades ago. I don't know how many bottles of ink and
blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...
--
David Kastrup
Mark Stephen Mrotek
2015-08-26 15:41:16 UTC
Permalink
David,

With a great deal of respect and admiration, I return to you a quote you once sent to me:

Wrangling down that attacking Rottweiler was actually not all that hard. It boils down to the same grips and holds we used to employ for killing lions when I was young.

Sincerely,

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=***@gnu.org [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=***@gnu.org] On Behalf Of David Kastrup
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 8:24 AM
To: Andrew Bernard <***@gmail.com>
Cc: LilyPond User Group <lilypond-***@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
Seriously? My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades. And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter). He still does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and articles a few decades ago. I don't know how many bottles of ink and blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...

--
David Kastrup

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-***@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
David Kastrup
2015-08-26 16:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Stephen Mrotek
Post by Mark Stephen Mrotek
Of David Kastrup
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
Seriously? My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades. And he
is 4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter). He
still does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts
and articles a few decades ago. I don't know how many bottles of ink
and blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...
Wrangling down that attacking Rottweiler was actually not all that
hard. It boils down to the same grips and holds we used to employ for
killing lions when I was young.
Oh, lions were smart enough not to mess with my dad. Never pick a fight
with people who buy ink by the barrel.
--
David Kastrup
Phil Holmes
2015-08-26 16:54:26 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Kastrup" <***@gnu.org>
To: "Andrew Bernard" <***@gmail.com>
Cc: "LilyPond User Group" <lilypond-***@gnu.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by Jacques Menu
1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?
Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
Seriously? My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades. And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter). He still
does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and
articles a few decades ago. I don't know how many bottles of ink and
blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...
--
David Kastrup

===========================================

FWIW I did all my physics lecture notes for my BSc with a Rotring pen.

--
Phil Holmes
Martin Tarenskeen
2015-08-26 13:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Johan Vromans
Post by Jacques Menu
In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
Still have a COMPASS manual around. Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.
:-)

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and
developers?
--
MT
Urs Liska
2015-08-26 20:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Johan Vromans
Post by Jacques Menu
In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice
for the
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Johan Vromans
I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
Still have a COMPASS manual around. Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.
:-)
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and
developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...

Urs
--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
Peter Bjuhr
2015-09-10 13:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
and
developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.

Best
Peter
Kieren MacMillan
2015-09-10 13:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Hello all,

Just in case this doesn’t make it to the poll stage…
Post by Urs Liska
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving existing compositions.
Age: I am 46 (as of two weeks ago)

Editor Usage: I recently switched to using Frescobaldi, after more than a decade of using Lilypad (i.e., the built-in editor that ships with the Mac OS X binary).

Lilypond Usage: I am a composer. (Actually, as of my birthday I’m now a full-time composer: I “retired” from my erstwhile dual career in music and computer programming.) So, naturally, >95% of my Lilypond usage is for engraving original compositions. (I do transcribe/transpose/etc. a few existing compositions from time to time, but that’s a very small part of my overall workflow.)

Hope that helps!
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: ***@kierenmacmillan.info
Peter Bjuhr
2015-09-10 15:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kieren MacMillan
Just in case this doesn’t make it to the poll stage…
Post by Urs Liska
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving existing compositions.
Age: I am 46 (as of two weeks ago)
Editor Usage: I recently switched to using Frescobaldi, after more than a decade of using Lilypad (i.e., the built-in editor that ships with the Mac OS X binary).
Lilypond Usage: I am a composer. (Actually, as of my birthday I’m now a full-time composer: I “retired” from my erstwhile dual career in music and computer programming.) So, naturally, >95% of my Lilypond usage is for engraving original compositions. (I do transcribe/transpose/etc. a few existing compositions from time to time, but that’s a very small part of my overall workflow.)
Thanks for sharing Kieren!

I think there will be a poll eventually, but here's a short description
in response:

I'm 44 and a composer and developer.

If I'm not mistaken I started using LilyPond and Frescobaldi in the
autumn 2012.

Apart from my small contribution to Das Trunkne Lied my work has been on
my own original pieces.

Best
Peter
Henning Hraban Ramm
2015-09-11 03:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I’m now 42, singer/songwriter and collector of German and international folk music. Former scout and LARP bard. Otherwise media designer and programmer.

I’m using LilyPond on OSX since summer 2005, previously with different editors (Smultron, TextWrangler, Eclipse), since maybe two years exclusively with Frescobaldi.

Mostly I prepare lead sheets and songbooklets for me and my friends and family from songs that I like and some of my own.
Since I also like to work with ConTeXt (a modern alternative to LaTeX that makes good use of LuaTeX), I’ve my own workflow to combine both (see http://wiki.contextgarden.net/LilyPond).
So I mostly engrave existing music, often with my own arrangements, but need LilyPond also as a composition tool (I need to hear the MIDI to be able to get the rhythm notation right or to test arrangements).

I just released my first CD, see http://www.fiee.net/auditive/ (everything in German); notes are available, LilyPond sources on request.

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
Simon Albrecht
2015-09-10 17:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
and
developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.
Age: 22
I’m a student of church music, but very uncertain as to where (in music)
I will end up :-)
I’ve been using LilyPond for roughly four years now, always through
Frescobaldi.
The larger part of my typesetting work is existing music, though if I do
arrangements and compositions myself I also typeset them with LilyPond.

Best,
Simon
Johan Vromans
2015-09-10 18:18:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:00:06 +0200
Post by Peter Bjuhr
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.
I'm 62, retired ICT specialist and musician (guitar).

I've always been attracted to typesetting in general, and typesetting music
in particular. I've been using LilyPond even before its very first
inception, while working with M-Tx, MusicTeX, MusixTeX in the early 90's. I
must admit I used many tools in those days, like ABC and Chord/ChordPro. I
wrote my own 'music compilers' (in Modula-2 and C) with backends for MIDI,
a Casio keyboard, and MusixTeX.

For music typesetting I now exclusively use LilyPond, Emacs, and
FrecsoBaldi, with help of a collection of home-grown Perl tools.

Most of the time I cooperate with a friend of mine who is
composer/arranger. She delivers Sibelius-generated MusicXML which I turn
into raw LilyPond using musescore, and then redesign it to produce single-
and multipart scores, and MIDI music from the individual parts for singer to
practice with.

Other music-related tools I often use: MuseScore, Denemo, ImproVisor, MMA,
RoseGarden, TiMidity, iRealPro, ChordBot, MobileSheetsPro. I revived the old
Chord program under the name Chordii and I maintain the ChordPro standard
(FWIW).

Attached is a picture of one of the very first LilyPond meetings.

-- Johan
Karen S. Billings
2015-09-11 02:32:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm still a LilyPond newbie...

As a retired Bell Labs engineer, I can honestly say that I have found LilyPond to be harder than learning vi, troff/nroff, and shell scripts. (Maybe it's age, maybe it's having been out of the field for 7+ years, or maybe it's just that I was never an actual programmer...)

I am a volunteer church musician and use LilyPond to "scribble out" music for services - usually for setting alternate words to a given harmonization (with adjustments) for the cantor & guitarists, for writing viola parts for a given melody, or for setting knew set of words to an alternate accompaniment (so I can simultaneously sing one and play the other).

I found LilyPond more than I could handle, so I use Frescobaldi when preparing snippets, since it helps me with debugging & lets me see what I've written (never underestimate immediate gratification... Or immediate "whoops!" feedback).

I learned of the Utopia project when using a LilyPond engraving of BWV 680 (J.S.Bach).

Since it's still new (6 months or so), I do find it a challenge...

Karen S. Billings CAGO
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
and
developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving existing compositions.
Best
Peter
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
H. S. Teoh
2015-09-11 02:52:35 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond
users and developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in
ages, but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like
editor usage and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or
for engraving existing compositions.
[...]

I'm 40, and use LilyPond primarily for my own original compositions,
both for typesetting and for midi output. On a few occasions I've
transcribed a few simple pieces here and there, mainly for my own
studies, and sometimes short snippets of other composers' pieces for
analysis/critique purposes.

Since I'm a programmer by profession, I have no problem with using
LilyPond's text-only input directly (via vim) -- in fact, I prefer
working that way. The text-based input format has made it easy to write
helper programs and scripts that allow me to work around limitations in
LilyPond's midi output capabilities, and I've managed to get quite
decent midi output that way.

(In fact, I've been able to automate the rather elaborate process of
splitting a score into instrument choirs rendered into separate midi
files, to work around the midi 15-channel limit, automatically render
each of them via a software synth and merging them back into a single
audio file using the audio processing program sox. The flexibility of
LilyPond's input format greatly helped in making this possible.)


--T
Jean-Charles Malahieude
2015-09-11 18:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.
I'm now 54 and I first used LilyPond in 2001 (version 1.3.73 or 84,
don't remember exactly) for an amateur choir where I sung bass (directed
by my wife). I re-typed a Te Deum composed by a brother of a sopran, and
found it fabulous. I prepare material for my wife who is also a music
teacher (examinations).

With John and Gauvain, we began to translate the web site in 2004 and
the documentation thereafter.

I'm not a programmer but use a computer since 1985.

Cheers,
Jean-Charles
Paul Scott
2015-09-11 18:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.
I am 73. I have used Lily on Debian Linux since the early 2000s. I enter
music with Emacs. I use Make to keep scores and parts updated.

I reorganize and/or recopy parts for orchestra, band, jazz band and
pit bands. Sometimes because parts are hard to read or don't
provide enough cues or because players in the pit can't play the
doubles required.

I once with help did an entire concerto when the rental agent didn't
deliver the parts on time.

Paul
PMA
2015-09-10 18:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
My average age is 75.
Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.

A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).

- Pete
PMA
2015-09-10 18:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
My average age is 75.
Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.
A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).
- Pete
P.S. I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.
PMA
2015-09-12 15:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
My average age is 75.
Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original
compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.
A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).
P.S. I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.
People have been so forthcoming on this thread, I feel like expanding
my entry background-wise a little. I was a pianist in academia for
decades, focussed most especially on the late works of F. Busoni.
My commitment to composition came late -- along with an interest in
programming, as the ideas that caught my fancy begged hard for
algorithmic carrying-out. I learned in order: BASIC, Forth (had a one-
year fling as a computer games geek), Pascal, C, and APL. This last
hooked me, and I've toddled after it into J.

Re IMSLP, I'd recommend it to anybody not bent on fame & fortune
via publication. IMSLP posts scores & audio, offers several levels of
Creative Commons copyright, and accomodates revisions. Last I
heard, they were considering offering bound hardcopy output for a
modest fee upon request. That was maybe a year ago, so I don't
know if it's come true.

Cheers!
Pete
Pierre-Luc Gauthier
2015-09-12 17:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
I'm ~30 years age.

Background:
At first using Music Sculptor(for about two years), then Note
Worthy(For about 2 years), then Finale(for about 6 years) and then a
rather abrupt transition(not being a programmer at all) to the
Lilypond software that I do now use regularly and have been for about
4 years.

Purpose:
I mostly do song arrangements for rock bands and "house bands" and few
orchestral arrangements.

My tool usage in a nutshell:
Everything I do is centered around the Git revision control system
using hooks, submodules, branches and what not. On top of that mr
(http://myrepos.branchable.com/), gitolite, Vim, Frescobaldi, shell
scripts, make files (They give me such a hard time!), LaTeX automated
"booklets" for musicians, Automated audio and midi files generation (I
am hoping to have automated audio sections (divided by rehearsal \mark
or something) to be outputted. Thanks to Urs for the ScholarLy
annotation system that I now use systematically: (everything seems to
be ready for automated LaTeX reports for every project :-) ). I also
am looking for automated small QR codes that would be generated on the
"fly" and displayed as rehearsal marks to link directly to the right
audio file on the web for practice purposes. All of that is hosted
using linodes services as a central for git repositories, build
machines, public hosting.

Status:
Most of that is in an infinite work-in-progress status but, as long as
I can output charts and conductor scores, every thing is fine for me.

Greetings to you all
(It's my first post on this mailing list)
--
Pierre-Luc Gauthier
Josh Monks
2015-09-12 18:13:13 UTC
Permalink
I'm 19 years old and a student of Music at the University of Birmingham.

I started to dabble in Lilypond a few years ago when it piqued my interest.
Nowadays I use it for engraving composition work and musical examples for
essays and other written work. I find Lilypond really useful because I can
do my work at home while most other students have to stay in the music
computer cluster slaving away in Sibelius well into the evening!

At the moment I'm arranging some string quartet music for a wedding. I am
finding Frescobaldi immensely helpful as it makes my workflow so much
quicker and keeps all the relevant files organised and easily accessible.

The two things I love about Lilypond the most are the beautiful output it
produces and the great power and flexibility provided by text input.

My thanks to the Lilypond community and everyone who continues to make it
such a brilliant tool for musicians.

Josh
Post by Pierre-Luc Gauthier
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
I'm ~30 years age.
At first using Music Sculptor(for about two years), then Note
Worthy(For about 2 years), then Finale(for about 6 years) and then a
rather abrupt transition(not being a programmer at all) to the
Lilypond software that I do now use regularly and have been for about
4 years.
I mostly do song arrangements for rock bands and "house bands" and few
orchestral arrangements.
Everything I do is centered around the Git revision control system
using hooks, submodules, branches and what not. On top of that mr
(http://myrepos.branchable.com/), gitolite, Vim, Frescobaldi, shell
scripts, make files (They give me such a hard time!), LaTeX automated
"booklets" for musicians, Automated audio and midi files generation (I
am hoping to have automated audio sections (divided by rehearsal \mark
or something) to be outputted. Thanks to Urs for the ScholarLy
annotation system that I now use systematically: (everything seems to
be ready for automated LaTeX reports for every project :-) ). I also
am looking for automated small QR codes that would be generated on the
"fly" and displayed as rehearsal marks to link directly to the right
audio file on the web for practice purposes. All of that is hosted
using linodes services as a central for git repositories, build
machines, public hosting.
Most of that is in an infinite work-in-progress status but, as long as
I can output charts and conductor scores, every thing is fine for me.
Greetings to you all
(It's my first post on this mailing list)
--
Pierre-Luc Gauthier
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
PMA
2015-09-12 20:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMA
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
My average age is 75.
Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original
compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.
A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).
P.S. I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.
People have been so forthcoming on this thread, I feel like expanding
my entry background-wise a little. I was a pianist in academia for
decades, focussed most especially on the late works of F. Busoni.
My commitment to composition came late -- along with an interest in
programming, as the ideas that caught my fancy begged hard for
algorithmic carrying-out. I learned in order: BASIC, Forth (had a one-
year fling as a computer games geek), Pascal, C, and APL. This last
hooked me, and I've toddled after it into J.
Re IMSLP, I'd recommend it to anybody not bent on fame & fortune
via publication. IMSLP posts scores & audio, offers several levels of
Creative Commons copyright, and accomodates revisions. Last I
heard, they were considering offering bound hardcopy output for a
modest fee upon request. That was maybe a year ago, so I don't
know if it's come true.
Cheers!
Pete
Oops, forgot: was 16-year UNIX SysAdmin for the federal judiciary.
Reckon that covers it.
Trevor Daniels
2015-09-11 14:35:08 UTC
Permalink
PMA wrote Thursday, September 10, 2015 7:21 PM
Post by PMA
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
Better answer -- My age is 75.
At 74 I thought I might be the oldest user/developer, but it seems I'm not.

I use LilyPond with Frescobaldi mainly for generating tailored vocal scores for my village choir, sometimes transcribed, sometimes (re-) arranged; very occasionally originated.
Although a relatively seasoned user (since 2008), doc writer and occasional developer, I find the built-in templates so quick and easy for the vocal scores I set that I use them all the time.

Trevor
Mats Bengtsson
2015-09-12 19:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
47! I've used LilyPond from the very first versions back in 1996. Actually,
I first used the MPP (MusiXTeX PreProcessor) by Han-Wen and Jan and then
started to test LilyPond as soon as it appeared. I contributed with some
patches and lots of bug reports and later spent too much of my time
supporting other LilyPond users on the mailing lists. Nowadays, I don't have
any time to contribute to the development, but still use the program every
now and then.

In my profession, I'm an associate professor in Signal Processing. On my
spare time, I'm an enthusiastic violin player, among others specializing in
baroque music. My typesetting is mostly spent on preparing readable versions
of more or less unreadable manuscripts, some occasional transpositions and
simple arrangements, and finally to typeset songs that my daughters make up.

/Mats
Jacques Menu
2015-09-12 20:54:01 UTC
Permalink
63 years old, recently retired computer scientist, and an amateur double reed player after playing the double bass for some time.

Started with LP 2.12, across which I came looking for a LaTeX complement for producing scores.

After using TextMate on Mac OS X I switched to Frescobaldi some time ago. Quite happy with it, although the copy/paste/search/replace mechanism doesn’t behave as expected on a Mac. Maybe I’ll look into this one day.

My use of LP is mainly for my own needs to circumvent my reading limitations by producing better scores.
I also help friends in various contexts, such as creating a choir score with an added tenor voice in G clef for a singing girl-friend, or transposing for various instruments.

After some experiments, I’ve come to either scan scores with PhotoScore Ultimate (PU) and then go thru MusicXML to LP, or enter the LP syntax by hand if the original is too low quality.

Before exporting as MusicXML, only the minimal stuff is worth doing with PU, such as checking keys, clefs and the number of notes/beats per bar, and moving some dynamics so as to attach them to the right notes.
In particular, fixing the slurs and number of rests in multirests can be avoided altogether, since the fixes are lost in the export. The bars numbers in comments and \barNumberCheck are fixed afterwards interactively if needed by a bash/sed script.

In one occasion, the LP code produced this way was rather messy, with a last staff being much too long to be displayed in PDF: importating the MusicXML into Finale 2014 and re-exporting it as MusicXML gave me a quite usable LP code. Sibelius 7.1.3 failed at this quite particular task… Working with those commercial tools is discouraging to me, too much mouse fine-tuning of details!

As to having other people move to LP, I’m conscious that text input won’t appeal to everybody, the leaning curve is steep indeed.

Thanks to all of you who contribute to LP development and user support: the latter is always fast and a most useful help!

JM
Post by Mats Bengtsson
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?
47! I've used LilyPond from the very first versions back in 1996. Actually,
I first used the MPP (MusiXTeX PreProcessor) by Han-Wen and Jan and then
started to test LilyPond as soon as it appeared. I contributed with some
patches and lots of bug reports and later spent too much of my time
supporting other LilyPond users on the mailing lists. Nowadays, I don't have
any time to contribute to the development, but still use the program every
now and then.
In my profession, I'm an associate professor in Signal Processing. On my
spare time, I'm an enthusiastic violin player, among others specializing in
baroque music. My typesetting is mostly spent on preparing readable versions
of more or less unreadable manuscripts, some occasional transpositions and
simple arrangements, and finally to typeset songs that my daughters make up.
/Mats
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Jacques Menu
2015-09-14 06:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Menu
Working with those commercial tools is discouraging to me, too much mouse fine-tuning of details!
I had actually started with Finale 3.0 long ago, and… finally gave it, licence and all, to a friend who was studying music.
There were about 45 tools in the palettes at the time to perform the various tasks IIRW.

JM
Johan Vromans
2015-08-25 07:40:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:23:12 +1000
Post by Andrew Bernard
Unless you enjoy writing Scheme as much as I do!
I programmed quite a lot in lisp and APL, but never quite liked it.

From a practical point of view: every linux system comes with Perl and
Python. If you're lucky you can add Scheme yourself.

-- Johan
David Kastrup
2015-08-25 07:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johan Vromans
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:23:12 +1000
Post by Andrew Bernard
Unless you enjoy writing Scheme as much as I do!
I programmed quite a lot in lisp and APL, but never quite liked it.
From a practical point of view: every linux system comes with Perl and
Python. If you're lucky you can add Scheme yourself.
If all else fails, the lilypond binary itself can serve as a GUILE
interpreter.
--
David Kastrup
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-25 08:06:14 UTC
Permalink
That was the general idea. I posted some instructions about how to add the utility to a lilypond installation for people but in a new thread. It was actually one of the main reasons I did it in Scheme - there would be a guaranteed known execution environment installed if the user is using lilypond to begin with.

A
Post by David Kastrup
If all else fails, the lilypond binary itself can serve as a GUILE
interpreter.
David Kastrup
2015-08-25 08:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by David Kastrup
If all else fails, the lilypond binary itself can serve as a GUILE
interpreter.
That was the general idea. I posted some instructions about how to add
the utility to a lilypond installation for people but in a new
thread. It was actually one of the main reasons I did it in Scheme -
there would be a guaranteed known execution environment installed if
the user is using lilypond to begin with.
It's not just that. It's also that the lilypond executable is pretty
sure to know the search paths of LilyPond. You cannot really get them
reliably without calling LilyPond, and if you do that anyway, why not
use its interpreter?
--
David Kastrup
Marc Hohl
2015-08-25 09:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by David Kastrup
If all else fails, the lilypond binary itself can serve as a GUILE
interpreter.
That was the general idea. I posted some instructions about how to add
the utility to a lilypond installation for people but in a new
thread. It was actually one of the main reasons I did it in Scheme -
there would be a guaranteed known execution environment installed if
the user is using lilypond to begin with.
It's not just that. It's also that the lilypond executable is pretty
sure to know the search paths of LilyPond. You cannot really get them
reliably without calling LilyPond, and if you do that anyway, why not
use its interpreter?
This would be a great idea!

The flatten-ly procedure would come in handy to solve the problem of
lilypond-book and lyluatex that changes in nested include files do not
cause the lilypond sourecs to be rendered again.

If the md5 sum is calculated of a flattened ly file instead of the
original ly file, *every* change is visible.

So +1 for making flatten-ly a lilypond executable!


Marc
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-25 09:12:26 UTC
Permalink
I am not sure I understand. Is having a symlink:

flatten-ly -> /home/username/bin/lilypond-wrapper.guile

not correct? The convert-ly utility is set up as:

convert-ly -> /home/username/bin/lilypond-wrapper.python


Andrew


On 25/08/2015 18:11, "David Kastrup" <***@gnu.org> wrote:


It's not just that. It's also that the lilypond executable is pretty
sure to know the search paths of LilyPond. You cannot really get them
reliably without calling LilyPond, and if you do that anyway, why not
use its interpreter?
Marc Hohl
2015-08-25 09:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
flatten-ly -> /home/username/bin/lilypond-wrapper.guile
convert-ly -> /home/username/bin/lilypond-wrapper.python
I think that David meant that your script should be callable by lilypond
itself, something like

lilypond flatten-ly.ly

This ensures that all include paths are resolved automatically.
A shell script does not know about lilypond's way to find include files ;-)

Marc
Post by Andrew Bernard
Andrew
It's not just that. It's also that the lilypond executable is pretty
sure to know the search paths of LilyPond. You cannot really get them
reliably without calling LilyPond, and if you do that anyway, why not
use its interpreter?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
David Kastrup
2015-08-25 09:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Bernard
Post by David Kastrup
It's not just that. It's also that the lilypond executable is pretty
sure to know the search paths of LilyPond. You cannot really get them
reliably without calling LilyPond, and if you do that anyway, why not
use its interpreter?
flatten-ly -> /home/username/bin/lilypond-wrapper.guile
not correct?
I can't say anything about the wrappers used here. I was pointing out
that calling a Scheme procedure via the lilypond executable has the
advantage of having search paths etc set correctly.

You can do that with

lilypond -e '(load "xxx.scm")'
--
David Kastrup
Andrew Bernard
2015-08-24 01:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Of course I shall add include path arguments, and ~ expansion.

Andrew
Simon Albrecht
2015-08-24 19:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew,

many thanks for your work.
I just tried the script and can’t avoid getting an error about lacking
rights. My command was:
$flatten-ly 18-der-stuermische-morgen.ly > debug.ly
sudo doesn’t help and it’s regardless of whether I place the script in
/usr/bin/ or in ~/.
Can you tell why that is?

Yours, Simon
Greetings Javier.
Here is a program I wrote for you, flatten-ly to read a lilypond file
and output it recursively flattening all the nested includes. It’s a
shell script invoking guile.
Usage: flatten-ly file
Outputs to standard output.
Unashamedly Linux.
I’ll make it more robust, and add a couple of features, add a lilypond
style wrapper and if there is any interest add it to openlilylib perhaps?
Andrew
behalf of Javier Ruiz-Alma
Reply-To: Javier Ruiz-Alma
Date: Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:20
To: LilyPond User Group
Subject: Way to flatten nested \include's?
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested \include's and dump
into new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the
code (i.e. for debugging)?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Blöchl Bernhard
2015-08-24 19:57:37 UTC
Permalink
The attached file is a binary, not a lilypond file, regardless of the
extension .ly?
Greetings Javier.
Here is a program I wrote for you, flatten-ly to read a lilypond file
and output it recursively flattening all the nested includes. It's a
shell script invoking guile.
Usage: flatten-ly file
Outputs to standard output.
Unashamedly Linux.
I'll make it more robust, and add a couple of features, add a lilypond
style wrapper and if there is any interest add it to openlilylib
perhaps?
Andrew
behalf of Javier Ruiz-Alma
Reply-To: Javier Ruiz-Alma
Date: Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:20
To: LilyPond User Group
Subject: Way to flatten nested include's?
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested include's and dump
into new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the
code (i.e. for debugging)?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Orm Finnendahl
2015-08-24 20:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blöchl Bernhard
The attached file is a binary, not a lilypond file, regardless of the
extension .ly?
No, it is a text file but the mime type of the attachment is specified
as application/octet stream. I changed it to text/plain in my Mail
program and then it was no problem to open it.

--
Orm
Simon Albrecht
2015-08-24 20:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blöchl Bernhard
The attached file is a binary, not a lilypond file, regardless of the
extension .ly?
Have another look: it’s not flatten.ly, but flatten-ly – without any
file name extension.
It’s not a binary either, but plain text, and is used as a shell script,
as Andrew said in his explanation below.

HTH, Simon
Post by Blöchl Bernhard
Greetings Javier.
Here is a program I wrote for you, flatten-ly to read a lilypond file
and output it recursively flattening all the nested includes. It's a
shell script invoking guile.
Usage: flatten-ly file
Outputs to standard output.
Unashamedly Linux.
I'll make it more robust, and add a couple of features, add a lilypond
style wrapper and if there is any interest add it to openlilylib
perhaps?
Andrew
behalf of Javier Ruiz-Alma
Reply-To: Javier Ruiz-Alma
Date: Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:20
To: LilyPond User Group
Subject: Way to flatten nested include's?
Is there a way to ask lilypond to expands nested include's and dump
into new file, such I can review/compile a flattened version of the
code (i.e. for debugging)?
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Tim Reeves
2015-09-10 18:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP for
roughly eight years.



Tim
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:26:24 +0200
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond
users
Post by Peter Bjuhr
Post by Urs Liska
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
Post by Martin Tarenskeen
and
developers?
Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.
Age: 22
I?m a student of church music, but very uncertain as to where (in music)
I will end up :-)
I?ve been using LilyPond for roughly four years now, always through
Frescobaldi.
The larger part of my typesetting work is existing music, though if I do
arrangements and compositions myself I also typeset them with LilyPond.
Best,
Simon
Nathan Ho
2015-09-10 19:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Reeves
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP for
roughly eight years.
Age: 18
Composition and piano student. I have been using LilyPond on-and-off
for about six years, nowadays mostly for arrangements and
transcriptions. Most music I work with now is not conventionally
notated, so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.

Regards,
Nathan
Kieren MacMillan
2015-09-10 19:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nathan,
Most music I work with now is not conventionally notated,
so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.
What kinds of things do you do?
How *is* it notated?

You may be the perfect [kind of] person to help make her the best notation application ever. =)

Cheers,
Kieren.
________________________________

Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: ***@kierenmacmillan.info
Nathan Ho
2015-09-10 23:20:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Kieren MacMillan
Post by Kieren MacMillan
Hi Nathan,
Most music I work with now is not conventionally notated,
so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.
What kinds of things do you do?
How *is* it notated?
You may be the perfect [kind of] person to help make her the best notation application ever. =)
Most of it has no notation at all -- freely improvised (no written
notation), or purely electronic (no human performers).

Regards,
Nathan
Wols Lists
2015-09-11 12:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Reeves
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
for roughly eight years.
Age: fifty-something.
Amateur trombonist
Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
clef :-)
I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.

Cheers,
Wol
Shane Brandes
2015-09-11 15:27:50 UTC
Permalink
41, organist, composer frequently for the church, sometimes
commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.


Shane
Post by Wols Lists
Post by Tim Reeves
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
for roughly eight years.
Age: fifty-something.
Amateur trombonist
Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
clef :-)
I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Urs Liska
2015-09-11 15:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Seems I have to chime in instead of preparing a merely statistical poll ...

42, pianist, musicologist (with half a decade's worth intermezzo of
electronic music. Unfortunately that was just before my
Lilypond/programming time, I already had some ideas to try generating
LilyPond input from PureData improvisations ....).

I'm using LilyPond to typeset
- transpositions from songs I have to play and that are too complex to
transpose from sight
- examples and snippets for texts
- scholarly editions, which is what I'm also working for on a more
general level.

Unfortunately I don't recall when I first worked with LilyPond and why I
started looking at it. One reason was definitely that I was frustrated
with Finale (2001)'s habit of breaking things after the fact. Probably
the idea of programmatic access also appealed to me already then.

Urs
Post by Shane Brandes
41, organist, composer frequently for the church, sometimes
commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.
Shane
Post by Wols Lists
Post by Tim Reeves
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
for roughly eight years.
Age: fifty-something.
Amateur trombonist
Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
clef :-)
I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
David Bellows
2015-09-11 18:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.

Me:

46-year-old composer.

I use Lilypond for all my scores. I've used off and on for 10 years(?)
but every day for the past 3 years. I started using it because it was
free, produced excellent scores, and having drunk the LaTeX Koolaid it
seemed like a perfect fit.

I don't have access to any instruments so I compose directly into Lilypond.

I have a massive project in the works
(http://www.platonicmusicengine.com) that uses Lua to generate
Lilypond files.

I use LuaLaTeX to bind my scores together into nice books.

I use emacs for my editor as I'm able to do Lilypond, LaTeX, and Lua
files as well as my website and various other projects in the same
editor.
Post by Urs Liska
Seems I have to chime in instead of preparing a merely statistical poll ...
42, pianist, musicologist (with half a decade's worth intermezzo of
electronic music. Unfortunately that was just before my
Lilypond/programming time, I already had some ideas to try generating
LilyPond input from PureData improvisations ....).
I'm using LilyPond to typeset
- transpositions from songs I have to play and that are too complex to
transpose from sight
- examples and snippets for texts
- scholarly editions, which is what I'm also working for on a more
general level.
Unfortunately I don't recall when I first worked with LilyPond and why I
started looking at it. One reason was definitely that I was frustrated
with Finale (2001)'s habit of breaking things after the fact. Probably
the idea of programmatic access also appealed to me already then.
Urs
Post by Shane Brandes
41, organist, composer frequently for the church, sometimes
commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.
Shane
Post by Wols Lists
Post by Tim Reeves
Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
for roughly eight years.
Age: fifty-something.
Amateur trombonist
Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
clef :-)
I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Urs Liska
2015-09-11 20:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bellows
Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.
I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.

Urs
Kim Shrier
2015-09-12 03:53:57 UTC
Permalink
I’m 60 and I program for a living.

I have been using lilypond almost from the time it first came out.
I mainly use it for typesetting medieval and renaissance music,
sometimes from original notation or for re-typsetting poorly
typeset editions.

I have contributed some minor enhancements and bug fixes
when I first started using lilypond but nothing lately.

I use emacs for music entry and manage my music projects
using the fossil source control system and the mk make command
from Plan 9.

I used to use Calliope on the NeXT machine before I discovered
lilypond. Tried Finale and Sibelius but I really prefer the text entry
and quality of lilypond.

Kim Shrier
Michael Hendry
2015-09-11 21:32:30 UTC
Permalink
I’m a 68 year-old retired GP.

I took up guitar aged 15, playing folk and rock stuff by ear, although I had learned piano long enough in primary school to know what a staff looked like, and I played in folk clubs and bands until medicine took over.

After a long career break(!), I took up guitar again when I retired, and went through a part-time jazz course at St Andrews University. Local musicians I play with tend to use Band-in-a-Box for lead-sheets, but this didn’t work for the course’s solo transcriptions, and essays which required notation mixed in with the text.

I tried Sibelius, but was frustrated by the lack of transparency in what it did (a simple modification tended to have hard-to-eradicate side-effects), and I discovered LilyPond.

Having a hobbyist interest in electronics, I encountered microprocessors in the 1970s, and built a couple of kit computers in the late seventies and early eighties, acquiring some programming experience in hand-assembly, assembler, BASIC and Pascal in the eighties, and with C in the nineties.

My requirements of Lilypond are minimal in comparison to the professionals on the list, and such challenges as I’ve put to the list appear to have been solved within minutes by the experts!

As a poor reader, I’m grateful for the MIDI facility which helps me proof-read my puny and time-consuming efforts at transcription.

It strikes me that Lilypond appeals to programmers who do a bit of music and musicians who do a bit of programming - I’ve struggled to “sell” it to musicians who aren’t into programming.

Michael
Brett Duncan
2015-09-12 02:45:29 UTC
Permalink
I'm a 48 year old school teacher (Mathematics and Computing).

I'm also the pianist in a jazz ensemble, which is what keeps me using
Lilypond - re-scoring pieces for which we have mainly hand-written
scores (some of them atrociously scribbled down).

I used to mainly use jEdit/LilyPondTool, but now I'm using Frescobaldi.

I've tried converting the Music teachers at my school to Lilypond, but
sadly they are welded to Sibelius.

Brett
Bockett Hunter
2015-09-11 18:37:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm 72.

I started using Lilypond because it's free,
and easy to use for a quick-and-dirty job.

I've continued to use it for its ability to set
Renaissance music: scholarly
appendages to notes, incipits, Petrucci
style breves and longs, indefinite length
terminal longs...

It's a lot better than what I did in the early
70's doing ASCII art for pieces from the
Odhecaton! From that I moved on to
doing some work with Don Byrd's engraving
program, originally done with a pen and
ink plotter.

Bockett Hunter
Bockett1.Hunter AT gmail . com
Tim Reeves
2015-09-12 00:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 22:22:45 +0200
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Post by David Bellows
Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.
I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
Urs
So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the average
user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old dogs new
tricks! ;)
Jonathan Webster
2015-09-12 00:27:59 UTC
Permalink
So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
dogs new tricks! ;)


OK, I'm 77. I use Lilypond only to engrave fiddle tunes for my own use.
Be well,
Jonathan
Post by Javier Ruiz-Alma
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Colin Campbell
2015-09-12 02:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Reeves
So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
dogs new tricks! ;)
It has been said that the way to avoid becoming an old dog is to keep
learning new tricks! I'm 63, and have recently been accepted as a
first year apprentice carpenter, after 40 years in financial reporting
and accounting. I discovered LilyPond well over 10 years ago, using it
in support of the various choirs in which I sing bass and tenor. I've
also been glad of the opportunity to put something back by helping where
I can, lately on the Bug Squad.

Cheers,
Colin
--
I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.
-Maya Angelou, poet (1928-2014 )
Alexander Kobel
2015-09-14 07:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Reeves
Post by Urs Liska
Post by David Bellows
Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.
I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
Urs
So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
dogs new tricks! ;)
Well, another interpretation is that to be able to spend the amount of
time required for using LilyPond, you need to be either retired or (by
profession) really desperately in need for its specific feature set...

Here: 31 to lower the average. Computer science grad student from
Saarbrücken, Germany, working on the borderline between mathematics
(computer algebra and numerics) and computational geometry.

I used to lead a church choir for seven years, and still sing in choirs
and ensembles. Lily was my reliable tool of choice for quick-and-undirty
engravings of (mostly) chorales last minute before the rehearsal. I'm in
a long-standing love-and-hate relationship with LaTeX and solely use
Linux since more than a decade. Guess that helped to dampen the learning
curve. I never had trouble to produce perfectly usable scores for my
needs, but that's almost exclusively "simple" vocal scores.
Only occasionally, perfectionism hits me for a while and I try to push
Lily's and my abilities - typically, until life complains and steals
back its time. Unfortunately, that means that there are some unfinished
pieces (both of Lily code and musical pieces) lying around and waiting
for my retirement... ;-)


Cheers,
Alexander
David Kastrup
2015-09-14 09:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Kobel
Post by Tim Reeves
Post by Urs Liska
Post by David Bellows
Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.
I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
Urs
So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
dogs new tricks! ;)
Well, another interpretation is that to be able to spend the amount of
time required for using LilyPond, you need to be either retired or (by
profession) really desperately in need for its specific feature set...
Actually, it's more like if you're trying to teach old tricks, you
better look for old dogs.

Text-based entry is an old trick in computing terms. It appeals to
people considering a keyboard as the principal means of input and who
think of a mouse primarily as the main enemy of punch cards.

Now I'd like to think that this should generally make sense to the
average musician, given that a lot more people play pianos, organs,
flutes and other instruments with digital 10-finger input than, say
theremins or other vague pointing instruments.

But I have to admit that bowed strings have quite a bit of analog input,
and a trumpet does not sport more buttons than the average mouse these
days.
--
David Kastrup
Adrian Oehm
2015-09-14 10:03:42 UTC
Permalink
45 years old

Day job: Chemist (like Borodin!)

Started with computers in the days of the VIC-20. Went through several BASIC interpreter computers. Work with both Windows (work) and Mac (home) now. Work use includes some programming in high level BASIC-like languages, and some rudimentary SQL, HTML.

Vocalist (counter-tenor) in a church choir - have been singing since I was 7-ish… Know enough piano to tinkle and amuse myself.

Started engraving music (pieces I’d written) in the late 80’s on the Mac Plus (9” screen and all!) with a program called “Music Publisher”. For its time, it wasn’t bad. Came with a separate keyboard so you typed the music in, notes appearing on the screen on the staves.

Tried Finale…couldn’t work out how to use it…so I gave up. Bought a lesser version from the same stable (well it is now) called Print Music. I use that to tinker with pieces on screen then playback the audio.

Came across LilyPond when I was looking to set a vocal piece I’d written that had chanted sections. I wanted stemless notes, and couldn’t do that in PM or Finale. Lily did the job, and well, and I’ve used it to set a range of vocal music since - my own and others works.

While the interface can sometimes be a challenge, I steal from what I’ve done before and what’s in the manuals and usually get it to work. I’ve made my own templates which makes it easier for me. My code my not always be the prettiest, but, hey, it works!

Always impressed by the look of the output, as are those for whom I’ve set music.

I don’t mind the text input at all - I just use the basic editor that opens when you launch the application. One thing I do like about the text based input is that even if I lose Lilypond for some reason, all my work is there accessible in text files…not like the pieces I have in Music Publisher files…now long inaccesible!
William Marchant
2015-09-12 01:28:49 UTC
Permalink
I am 84. Wrote my first programme in 1965. Didn't keep it up because
I wasn't fast enough to earn money at it.

Did some Pascal programming later. Interesting utilities, now all out
of date.

Started using Lilypond and Frescobaldi about nine months ago on ubuntu.
I make music sheets for our trio. Mouth organ - Me, and a piano and
guitar. Lots of fun.

Lots of good help on this forum. I couldn't do without it.
Bill
Urs Liska
2015-09-12 05:24:17 UTC
Permalink
I assume this was intended for the list.


-------- UrsprÃŒngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Martin Tarenskeen <***@zonnet.nl>
Gesendet: 11. September 2015 23:09:32 MESZ
An: Urs Liska <***@openlilylib.org>
Betreff: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
Post by Urs Liska
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
I guess it's time to react to this thread that I originally started
myself :-)

I'm 54. I don't remember when I started using LilyPond exactly, but it
must be since 5 years or so. I have also used other text-based score
programs like abcm2ps and mup, and occasionally I still use them. But
LilyPond is my first choice.

I teach piano and have pupils from age 3 to 80.
I do much (re-)arrangements or transcription from existing works, for
educational purposes. I did do original compositions in the past, and plan
to do more of that in the future if time allows.

I use Vim or Frescobaldi to edit my scores.
I sometimes write my own python or sh scripts to organise scores and
parts.
--
MT
--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
J Martin Rushton
2015-09-12 19:50:27 UTC
Permalink
59 year old system manager with a background in system programming,
down to assembly language. Generally I dislike GUIs, so vi + Lily is
"sweet music to my ears", though I do admit to Frescobaldi on
occasions. I use it for a little composing, more arranging but mostly
generating clean scores for the family and on one occasion Wikipedia.
Edward Ardzinski
2015-09-13 17:43:03 UTC
Permalink
I'm just about 6 weeks shy of 50, been programming computers for close to 20
years. I have been involved with deep database design, GUI design, and
reporting over the years, I'm primarily a SQL jock now.

I picked up Lilypond in early 2006, if the modified dates on my files are
any indication. I'm assiduous that way - It's helped narrow the genesis of
ideas.

Lilypond's set up immediately hooked me, I really have never used any other
manuscript programs, so my perspective is probably pretty limited. And
unique - as a programmer I created my own text editor...now that the source
code is on a very old computer, I'm kind of locked into the very old LP
version I run...I did some experimenting with v2.12, so I think I could
convert, but at this point I have not had any limitations in 2.6.5. (yes,
that old)...

I am primarily a rock bassist, but with some classical piano and trumpet
training,and I also can play guitar. I developed my own template and
methods of taking a simple musical theme and weaving it into a 2-4 minute
song. I'm trying to write out a cogent essay outlining the symbiotic
process between my music LP and the other software products I employ.
Mainly I create midi files for a 3 part "power trio" - a treble part, a bass
part, and a 2 stave drum kit. From there I use AcidPRO to create mp3's
files to hear, in a general way, the way the music sounds.



--
View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-Re-OT-Beauty-of-programming-languages-tp181025p181091.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
David Kastrup
2015-09-13 18:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Ardzinski
Lilypond's set up immediately hooked me, I really have never used any
other manuscript programs, so my perspective is probably pretty
limited. And unique - as a programmer I created my own text
editor...now that the source code is on a very old computer, I'm kind
of locked into the very old LP version I run...I did some
experimenting with v2.12, so I think I could convert, but at this
point I have not had any limitations in 2.6.5. (yes, that old)...
10 years. You know, if you created your own text editor on a very old
computer and still have the source code for it around: it's rather
likely that you can compile the bulk of the source code on a more modern
computer and get the screen/kbd code warped to the ncurses library or
similar.

Output quality has improved just the tiniest of bits since then.
Post by Edward Ardzinski
I am primarily a rock bassist, but with some classical piano and
trumpet training,and I also can play guitar. I developed my own
template and methods of taking a simple musical theme and weaving it
into a 2-4 minute song. I'm trying to write out a cogent essay
outlining the symbiotic process between my music LP and the other
software products I employ. Mainly I create midi files for a 3 part
"power trio" - a treble part, a bass part, and a 2 stave drum kit.
From there I use AcidPRO to create mp3's files to hear, in a general
way, the way the music sounds.
In the last few years, Midi can be made to output a lot more of
articulations/dynamics and other niceties, and you can give various
instruments their own pan/balance.
--
David Kastrup
Edward Ardzinski
2015-09-13 19:15:28 UTC
Permalink
At this point I can't even locate the LP 2.6.5 install package - so I'll be
faced with a change when I need a new computer, and that is probably a
shockingly small number of days.

I figure I can figure something out for opening ly files - they are text
after all. The custom editor was fun and all that, but it's been 6 years
since I did an update to that even, and now have a "code fragments" text
file I keep open.

I think my structured work of the last few years will be easier to port - I
can't even get good work done on some of my oldest work since I was writing
things out in such a verbose way. I suspect I will need primarily to tweak
the template file for the little bits I've read on newer versions of LP.
The version of AP I'm using also also ages old, so I might be porting in a
lot of ways.





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MING TSANG
2015-09-12 11:36:43 UTC
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I'm 68 years old and an IBM mainframe programmer using COBOL. Now retired.
I've been using Lilypond since v1.12. One of the reason I choose lilypond because it supports UTF-8 for lyrics. Now I am gladly using V2.18.2 and V2.19.26.
I sing in a choir.  Time and time, we were given photocopy music sheet and they are hard to read.  I started transcribe the photocopy music sheet by using lilypond for my own use.  Few months thereafter, choir member ask for printed copy of lilypond generated pdf. I am greatly obliged.    
Few months ago copyright subject come up. I bought a song book contains 10 STAB choir songs.  I transcribe one of them and use for whole choir. Is this legal?  
Immanuel,Ming. 
David Kastrup
2015-09-12 12:24:56 UTC
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Post by MING TSANG
I'm 68 years old and an IBM mainframe programmer using COBOL. Now retired.
I've been using Lilypond since v1.12. One of the reason I choose
lilypond because it supports UTF-8 for lyrics. Now I am gladly using
V2.18.2 and V2.19.26.
I sing in a choir.  Time and time, we were given photocopy music sheet
and they are hard to read.  I started transcribe the photocopy music
sheet by using lilypond for my own use.  Few months thereafter, choir
member ask for printed copy of lilypond generated pdf. I am greatly
obliged.    
Few months ago copyright subject come up. I bought a song book
contains 10 STAB choir songs.  I transcribe one of them and use for
whole choir. Is this legal?  
Depends on the composer's date of death and whether you are transcribing
editorial annotations as well or just sticking to the Urtext. "we were
given photocopy music sheet" does not exactly sound a lot more legal
either, though I have indeed (from Hohner Verlag) received "original
sheet music" that was a really lousy quality loose sheet photocopy with
an "original music, do not photocopy" stamp mark placed on it.

For your own private use transcribing from your own legal bad-quality
copy tends to be considered fair use in a number of jurisdictions.
--
David Kastrup
Wols Lists
2015-09-12 13:30:14 UTC
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Post by David Kastrup
Depends on the composer's date of death and whether you are transcribing
editorial annotations as well or just sticking to the Urtext. "we were
given photocopy music sheet" does not exactly sound a lot more legal
either, though I have indeed (from Hohner Verlag) received "original
sheet music" that was a really lousy quality loose sheet photocopy with
an "original music, do not photocopy" stamp mark placed on it.
Dunno how it works elsewhere, but in the UK, if you pay the copyright
fees you get a stamp that you can place, in red ink, a "property of X"
statement that says copyright has been paid on the photocopy so it's legit.

So a lot of our copies have that stamp for some other band in black :-)

Cheers,
Wol
b***@centrum.is
2015-09-12 13:59:59 UTC
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I'm 57. Full-time orchestra musician (bass trombone). I've been using LilyPond for at least 12 years, maybe longer. First heard of it when there was an announcement on the MusiXTeX list that version 0.0.1(?) was released having grown from being a pre-processor to MusiXTeX. It still required a working MusiXTeX installation at the time. I had discovered MusiXTeX after having stumbled into (La)TeX when I downloaded an article I wanted to read which was in *.dvi format. Prior to this my music printing software was Finale. At first my editing environment was emacs. Some months back I was trying to interest a friend in using LilyPond and recommended that he use Frescobaldi as his editor. I had to try it out in order to show him how it worked. I've pretty much stuck with that as my editor since then. My main use is for arrangements I do or replacing lost/damaged parts or pages. I've done a bit of 'engraving' for others as well.

-David
David Sumbler
2015-09-12 12:38:29 UTC
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I guess I had better join in this "off"-topic.

I use Lilypond and Emacs on Ubuntu 12.04. I previously use Score for
the flute-and-harp arrangements that my former partner and I used to
publish. I found learning to use Lilypond effectively much harder to
than Score was.

It's always much easier to hear wrong notes than to spot them in a
printed score, so I use midi output for that purpose.

I am 68, and recently retired as an orchestral flautist. I am mainly
using Lilypond to put all of the music I ever composed into printed
form. This is not really a vanity project - I know that my compositions
are not great works, and a few of them are absolute rubbish! - but it
keeps me doing something musical which will occupy me for years to come.
Having said that, I was interested in Pete's mention of uploading things
to IMSLP. I might consider putting some of my better pieces there.

My computing background starts with a BBC Micro in 1982. I soon got
into writing programs using BBC BASIC, but also loved using assembly
language. I wrote a disassembler and output the whole of the OS in
assembly language, on reams of fan-fold paper! I also wrote an
interpreter (in assembler) for a language called Forth, which I was very
keen on.

After a few years away from computers, I came back to them in 1994. I
have always enjoyed programming, and have dabbled with C, Perl, Java and
a few other languages. I use Python for anything I seriously want to
do. For many years I used Psion hand-held computers, and used its own
OPL language for programming.

Wanting to understand Scheme because of its use with Lilypond, I
indirectly came across the book "Structure and Interpretation of
Computer Programs" by Abelson & Sussman, and am slowly working my way
through this. The disciplined approach to programming is something I
could really do with!

David
Stan Sanderson
2015-09-13 02:41:45 UTC
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Briefly- Age: 75, using LilyPond since 2003, many Mutopia submissions which others have updated. Most challenging project (2003-2004): Joseph Archer's parlor piano transcription of his "Alice, Where Art Thou?." Mutopia was my example and teacher back then. I'm a retired physics teacher, frustrated classical guitarist, choir and solo tenor and very poor pianist. Love music; lots of hope but little talent. I use Frescobaldi (thank you Wilbert!) for vocal arranging and enjoy typesetting J. J. Froberger's PD keyboard music.

My first computing experience was on an IBM 1620, now a Mac person. Briefly played with Finale, but it wasn't fun.

I'm grateful to Han-Wen and Jan for planting the seed from which so much has grown. That brief introduction about the aesthetics of music typesetting was a powerful motivating factor. Thank you to all who continue to improve the magic.

Stan
Peter Gentry
2015-09-13 15:49:15 UTC
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While we are at it

Age 73 - Married - North of England

previous life Senior Scientific Oficer - Heat Transfer
Mechanical Engineering Degree
Struggling clarinet player and general music lover

Started producing music scores using NoteWorthy Composer

Graduated to LilyPond some years ago - still very much on the learning curve.

Like many others have had a fair amout of programming experience on IBM and ICL mainframes, PDP8 mini computers BBC Microcomputers
and the works of Master Gates. Minimal exposure to the likes of unix and linux and cannot afford extortionate Macs.

Lilypond is a godsend and a wonderful example of open source software with so many contributing and providing help and advice to
hapless strugglers. Bravo.

Should any other clarinet players want some baroque music to play feel free to raid http://sunscales.co.uk not all of the files are
finished and I'm sure many contain errors. They also reflect my modest progress with LilyPond. There aren't many ly files but just
ask should you want them.

regards
Peter Gentry
Flaming Hakama by Elaine
2015-09-13 22:47:52 UTC
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44 years old

Day job: web development, mostly JavaScript these days, but I've used quite
a number of others over the years (including APL).

Started composing in high school in the 1890s, primarily Jazz and chamber
music, with some larger works. I've been using Lilypond to produce scores
for players, as well as to generate MIDI input for recordings.

My first exposure to music notation software was in college in the early
1990s, entering notes and rhythms in Finale for a professor (it was deemed
a waste of time to enter the articulations and dynamics, so those were done
by hand in ink).

I stuck with handwriting for many years--the only times I heard people talk
about Sibelius or Finale was to complain about it, so I was never curious
to re-evaluate, despite my process being pretty lame: write music on paper
with pencil and ruler, then photocopy and scan it, then use photoshop to
add titles and text and deal with margins/sizing/pagination.

The need to transpose parts is what convinced me to switch to Lilypond,
some time around 2012. I was introduced to Lilypond through a brass band I
played with that used it for its rep
http://brassliberation.org/sheetmusic.php

I've been largely happy with Lilypond for small and medium-scale projects.
There is of course a learning curve, but it is easy to consolidate
learnings, and keep developing better and better templates and techniques.
This mailing list is also wonderful.

The combination of working with larger scores, and using Lilypond for
workshopping and rearrangements is my current bete noir.


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954 "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
***@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ralph Palmer
2015-09-14 01:12:04 UTC
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On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine <
Post by Flaming Hakama by Elaine
Started composing in high school in the 1890s,
Really? Wow! (1980s?)

Ralph
--
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
***@gmail.com
Leszek Wroński
2015-09-14 08:01:08 UTC
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Age: 33.
Day job: Assistant Professor at the local Institute of Philosophy.

I do much teaching, but also write papers involving a lot of
mathematics (apart from 'philosophy' :-)). So, naturally, I'm using
LaTeX, under Linux. Also, I'm trying to use Emacs for everything. I
used it for Lilypond for a few years, but see below.

I sing the tenor in the local chamber baroque music choir. We quite
often do first (or one of the first) modern performances of forgotten
works. I prepare modern editions from manuscripts scanned by the
Dresden Library which are publicly available online, and put them on
the IMSLP. I have recently discovered Frescobaldi and I have to say
that for big scores its "click at the score to put the source editor
in the correct place" functionality is very efficient.

Any time I had any queries for this mailing list, I always got great
answers! Thanks everyone!

Cheers,

Leszek.
flup2
2015-09-14 08:26:33 UTC
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Age: 40

Job: teacher in a public music school (music theory, sightreading, music
history, etc.) and accompanist in Belgium

I began computer engraving by working for a little publishing and engraving
company that worked for some Belgian and French publishers. We were using
Finale, from 3.7.2 to 2007. After stopping there, I decided to use LaTeX for
all my writing stuff, and LilyPond came a few time later, with the same
ideas: text file source, content >< form, etc..
Before LaTeX and lilypond, my only "code" experience was TI-99 games in
Basic back in the early '80s ;-) (with backup on audio tapes !)

For now, my lilypond files are mostly teaching material for my students, or
transcriptions of melodies for my "amateur bass voice" (to avoid
transposition for the accompanist ;-) )

Philippe



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David Kastrup
2015-09-14 09:03:05 UTC
Permalink
I have recently discovered Frescobaldi and I have to say that for big
scores its "click at the score to put the source editor in the correct
place" functionality is very efficient.
Well, this should work with a number of editors and previewers if you
read the instruction in the "Using LilyPond" manual about "Point and
Click", but of course not having to fight through any configuration for
that is convenient.
--
David Kastrup
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