Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.

So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.

The post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/

The chart (Google document):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

Thanks,
Dave Bellows

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.
So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested
write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

Best,
Abraham

[David Bellows]

Hey Abraham,

What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute
and look forward to the results!

Dave

Hi, David!

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.
So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).
Best,
Abraham

[Abraham Lee]

Post by David Bellows
I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute

I don't think posting it as text on Reddit is the best format (not that I
have an account to do so, but that's beside the point). Tabular form makes
a lot more sense to me, like is typically seen on Wikipedia. So, I will
wait for the owner to give permission.

Post by David Bellows
and look forward to the results!

Yeah! From my quick look-over, LP should do very well on both the Notation
and Engraving tabs, but not so good (unsurprisingly) on the Playback tab.
Then again, I don't use the 'articulate' function much, since I don't need
playback for more than ear-proofing the notes. Maybe it can provide more
"Yes"-es than I think! If anyone has deeper experience here, please let me
know and I will adjust LP's entries accordingly.

Best,
Abraham

[Karlin High]

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.

<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>

Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

[Urs Liska]

Post by Karlin High

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.
<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>

I think both of these links (although interesting in itself) don't help
very much for this specific purpose.

Urs

Post by Karlin High
Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

[David Kastrup]

Post by Karlin High

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.
<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.

So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.

[David Bellows]

Urs,

I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Post by Karlin High

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.
<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.
So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
--
David Kastrup

[Shane Brandes]

Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
mean by jazz articulations?

-Shane

Post by David Bellows
Urs,

I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Post by Karlin High

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.
<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.
So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
--
David Kastrup

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

[J Martin Rushton]

See also on Wikipedia for a comparison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_scorewriters

Post by Shane Brandes
Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
mean by jazz articulations?
-Shane

Post by David Bellows
Urs,

I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Post by Karlin High

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
software.
<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.
So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
--
David Kastrup

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

[Torsten Hämmerle]

What do they mean by jazz articulations?

Hi Shane,

I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…

All the best,
Torsten




--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

[Shane Brandes]

So it does everything on that list near as I can work out.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:57 PM Torsten Hämmerle

Post by Torsten Hämmerle

What do they mean by jazz articulations?

Hi Shane,
I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…
All the best,
Torsten
--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html
_______________________________________________
lilypond-user mailing list
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Post by David Bellows

find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Maybe call it extensibility - other programs might accept plugins or might be scriptable in JavaScript or the like.

You could also mention interoperability - MusicXML, (La)TeX... Others might have e.g. Word addons and fare better WRT MusicXML...

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
https://www.fiee.net

[Abraham Lee]

Post by Urs Liska
Urs,

Post by Urs Liska
I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily

much to the comments section).
If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

Post by Urs Liska
not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the

list
I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

Post by Urs Liska
find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins

after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with
syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe
this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I
felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid
marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm
honestly not sure what they should be since many of the playback
functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback rather than
score output (i.e., using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.).
Please feel free to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've
answered in error.

Best,
Abraham

[David Bellows]

Post by Abraham Lee
Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond

Excellent work and thank you!

Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
have that as a "no" for Lilypond.

Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
make much of a difference?

Dave

Post by Abraham Lee

Post by David Bellows
Urs,

I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins after-the-fact), with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ... (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm honestly not sure what they should be since many of the playback functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback rather than score output (i.e., using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.). Please feel free to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've answered in error.
Best,
Abraham

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

Post by David Bellows

Post by Abraham Lee
Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond

Excellent work and thank you!

My pleasure ;-)

Post by David Bellows
Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
have that as a "no" for Lilypond.

Forked stems (or splayed stems, as Harm referred to them) can be necessary
when there are two notes that share the same staff line or space, but are
not the same pitch (e.g., <g gis>) A split stem separates the two noteheads
with their respective accidentals so they each can be distinguished
clearly. They aren't super common and can often be avoided by using a
different enharmonic spelling, but sometimes they can't be avoided and
require this. LilyPond doesn't handle this situation natively (yet) and it
requires a nice workaround, such as the one Harm presented.

Post by David Bellows
Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
make much of a difference?

Not really. The line items are pretty standard things, most of which have
been supported for a long time now. I don't suspect 2.18.2 to score much
differently than 2.19.82, except for only a few items like supporting
alternate music fonts, which was introduced in 2.19.12.

Best,
Abraham

[Malte Meyn]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Thomas Morley]

„Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
→ should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“

Or like attached pdf.
Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932

Cheers,
Harm

[Abraham Lee]

Am Di., 27. Nov. 2018 um 00:16 Uhr schrieb Malte Meyn <

„Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
→ should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“

Or like attached pdf.
Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will update the spreadsheet accordingly.

Best,
Abraham

[Urs Liska]

Post by David Bellows
Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.
So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily
much to the comments section).

But if we do that I think we should

* not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
  (just two random entries: "Lyrics, unlimited number of stanzas",
"Ornaments, custom").
  Especially on the "Engraving" tab there are *lots* of possibilities

* find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins
after-the-fact),
  with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means,
conditional layout per engraving target ...
  (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

My 2cts

Urs

Post by David Bellows
Thanks,
Dave Bellows
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