question: volta + dynamics

[Edward Sanford Sutton, III]

Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a section of
music to indicate that it is played at one level the first time and at the
next level the second time?

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the first
time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

Use markup, and make a separate midi version without the volte. That's
really the only way to do any fine tuning of the midi. Midi is in
LilyPond only to check for errors. The GODs are not going to go
any further, but I don't think that they would mind if someone else
did.

A lily2midge converter might be the way to go with that. daveA

[Edward Sanford Sutton, III]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the first
time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by immediately
pulling back the intensity.

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Use markup, and make a separate midi version without the volte. That's
really the only way to do any fine tuning of the midi. Midi is in
LilyPond only to check for errors. The GODs are not going to go
any further, but I don't think that they would mind if someone else
did.
A lily2midge converter might be the way to go with that. daveA

I personally hope that I can get back into programming this summer a bit; This
is one idea I have for a project I might take up. LilyPond does so good with
sheet music output; it is a very helpful tool to proofread a document by
syntax, output, and even aurally. Listening to output has helped me find
wrong notes quite well, but that is about as far as I find I can use it
without more precise output.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by
immediately pulling back the intensity.

That's <sfz> sforzando. fp is forte first time, p second time.

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Use markup, and make a separate midi version without the volte.
That's really the only way to do any fine tuning of the midi. Midi
is in LilyPond only to check for errors. The GODs are not going to
go any further, but I don't think that they would mind if someone
else did.
A lily2midge converter might be the way to go with that. daveA

I personally hope that I can get back into programming this summer a
bit; This is one idea I have for a project I might take up. LilyPond
does so good with sheet music output; it is a very helpful tool to
proofread a document by syntax, output, and even aurally. Listening
to output has helped me find wrong notes quite well, but that is
about as far as I find I can use it without more precise output.

Midge is a midi creator that makes midi files from a text file. The
syntax is completely different, but it is a GNU project. It is
newer than lilypond, but it has more controls of the midi. It
seems to me that it would be good to have a way to use them both
at once. daveA

[Mats Bengtsson]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by
immediately pulling back the intensity.

That's <sfz> sforzando. fp is forte first time, p second time.

Don't talk nonsense! The notation fp is common in lots of music
should be performed similarly to fz and sfz (exactly how it should
be performed depends on when the music was written and may also
vary from composer to composer.


/Mats

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Mats Bengtsson

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by
immediately pulling back the intensity.

That's <sfz> sforzando. fp is forte first time, p second time.

Don't talk nonsense! The notation fp is common in lots of music
should be performed similarly to fz and sfz (exactly how it should
be performed depends on when the music was written and may also
vary from composer to composer.

I went to HDM, and it says "loud, followed by soft". I have only
seen it at the beginning of a repeated section, before the first note,
where the sense I gave it is perfectly clear. You may have seen
it often in the sense of sfz, but I have not. Clearly sfz is
preferable anyway?

All the more reason why it can't be implemented as a simple
\dynamic with midi, though. Especially if it varies from
composer to composer as you say. daveA

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I went to HDM, and it says "loud, followed by soft". I have only
seen it at the beginning of a repeated section, before the first note,
where the sense I gave it is perfectly clear. You may have seen
it often in the sense of sfz, but I have not. Clearly sfz is
preferable anyway?

I have never seen fp as meaning "f forte for 1st repeat, p for 2nd
repeat" (that is denoted with f-p). fp is a type of accent/dynamic,
and fp is different from sfz (sf = sforzato):

fp dynamic is loud start followed with subito piano.


(attack)
^ . .
|
dyn .
.........

time ->



where sfz dynamic is more like

(attack)
.
^ .
| .
dyn . .


time ->

on horn, sfz often also involves a different attack of the tongue.
(perhaps for string players bowing technique is different.) Details
vary with era where the composition originates, though.

I can imagine that you find the distinction unimportant, since the
dynamic of a note once struck cannot be altered on a piano or
guitar. For wind/string players the difference is essential.


--
Han-Wen Nienhuys | ***@xs4all.nl | http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

[David Raleigh Arnold]

[snip--difficult to tell what's off list now, with the delay]

Mozart used fp a lot, when there was no such thing as sfz, so I was
wrong, sort of. I have examples of 2 pf's in the volta sense in one
book engraved in 1853. How could fp or pf mean the same thing on guitar
or piano as it does on arci or winds? In Mozart's time, notation was no
longer used for guitar music. Alfabeto had become too complex to apply
to five courses of strings, there were already works in tab for a guitar
of four courses, and the guitar had become the little sister of the
lute, which was on its way out. There were decent musicians playing the
6 string guitar soon after, and they avoided tab like the plague it is.
Point: When Mozart was writing pf's, there was no guitar notation,
only tab.

Add the hyphen to that, and I believe the people who say they have
routinely seen it, and you have a complete mess. There is also poco
forte, which means to play a little louder, for example between
p and mp. It does not mean somewhat loud. There are also mpf
and other combinations. The midi just can't match the markup in any of
that. I still think it would be good to simplify the process of
applying different dynamics to the engraver and performer where
necessary, since it is necessary often, and anything simplifying the
process of producing different engraved and midi versions would also be
very welcome.

Thanks for the two-score solution. Useful idea.

Is \midge{#midge syntax} a possibility? The developers should talk
to each other. I have never seen or heard of two projects so
complementary, since midge is midi only. daveA

[Matthias Kilian]

[Little bit offtopic]

[...] How could fp or pf mean the same thing on guitar
or piano as it does on arci or winds?

I'v even seen a piano sheet with a crescendo on a single half note chord,
at tempo allegretto.

Technically, that's of course complete nonsense. However, it may be that
the composer (unfortunately I dont' remember where I'v seen that strange
crescendo) wanted to explain the intention of the music. "I'd love to
have a crescendo here, but unfortunately that's impossible on a piano."

On the other hand, the engraver that did that sheet may have been a
little bit stoned :-)

BTW: the other direction (from f subito to p) *is* possible on piano
with sophisticated pedalling/damping. [I wish I had *that* skills]

Ciao,
Kili

[Roland Goretzki]

Hello list, hello Kili,

Post by Matthias Kilian
I'v even seen a piano sheet with a crescendo on a single half note chord,
at tempo allegretto.
Technically, that's of course complete nonsense.

This is not quite correct:
The speciality at good piano playing is not the real sound in the air,
but the sound, which the recipient hears in his mind.

If I'd try to make "this nonsense" become reality, I wouldn't try
to move my finger in a special way and then BELIEVE, that it sounds
correct, but I'd move the finger, AS IF a crescendo with one note on the
piano WOULD BE POSSIBLE.

The real piano masters do so, and the result is, that the recipient in
his mind hears one note on the piano making a crescendo.

Yes, it is a psychological phenomen, but:
It is the "magic" of really good piano playing. :)

(One of the greatest masters of that was Vladimir Horowitz, whom I could
hear in 1986, and I was astonished to hear live, what I before could
hear on a "Schallplatte" [what is the english word?] in the "Träumerei"
of Robert Schumann's "Kinderszenen": A long note, which made a crescendo
after a while! Until this live-concert I thougt, it would have been an
acoustic tric at the recording.)

After this concert I tried to do the same, and in deed, it was possible,
but for me only a little bit. :-( ;-)

Post by Matthias Kilian
However, it may be that the composer (unfortunately I dont' remember
where I'v seen that strange crescendo) wanted to explain the intention
of the music.
"I'd love to have a crescendo here, but unfortunately that's
impossible on a piano."
On the other hand, the engraver that did that sheet may have been a
little bit stoned :-)

Well, I don't think so ...

Post by Matthias Kilian
BTW: the other direction (from f subito to p) *is* possible on piano
with sophisticated pedalling/damping. [I wish I had *that* skills]

Please, what is "skills"? (I'm from Germany.)

Post by Matthias Kilian
--
Der audiophile High-Ender hört nicht die Musik, er hört die Anlage.

Oh, pardon, You are from a german speaking country, too? :)

Regards Roland

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Is \midge{#midge syntax} a possibility? The developers should talk
to each other. I have never seen or heard of two projects so
complementary, since midge is midi only. daveA

I myself am focusing on notation. You're welcome to implement
something yourself, though.


--
Han-Wen Nienhuys | ***@xs4all.nl | http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

[Todd M. Zimnoch]

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by
immediately pulling back the intensity.

That's <sfz> sforzando. fp is forte first time, p second time.

Those are two separate articulations. Sforzando is an accented attack
and is not necessarily followed by a subito piano. fortepiano is an
unaccented attack that (by definition) includes a subito
piano. <dynamic 1> - <dynamic 2> [- <dynamic 3>...] is the common
notation for different dynamics on subsequent repeats.

Things may be different for guitar music.

-Todd

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

It occurs in marches all the time.

That pretty much tears it. Plan A, to have a single markup that also
applies to midi for repeats, is pretty much hopeless to implement.
Plan B is to implement a new special syntax for dynamics with volte.
Until that is done, the separate midi version is the only alternative.

Plan B is a bit more tricky than it would appear, because many people
want a long printed version with a short midi file without all the
repeats, and others would find the opposite more useful. There are
other problems, like what happens with crescendi?

I think that it would be a good idea in any case to have \dynamic apply
both midi and markup, \pdynamic (\performdynamic) apply midi but not
markup, and \tdynamic (\textdynamic) apply markup but not midi. Simpler
to remember is all.

A way to make a separate midi version in the same file would be good.
Simply have the midi block contain a copy of the notes in the score
block. If there are no notes in the midi block, it could continue to
use all the notes in the score, the way it does now. If it contained
\midinotes, only those notes would be rendered into midi.

\score { \notes <<
\global
\tpt
\clar
\gtr
\midi { \midinotes <<
\midiglobal (contains tempo changes, etc.)
\tpt
\midiclar
\gtr
}
}
daveA

[Paul Scott]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the first
time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

It occurs in marches all the time.

Paul Scott

[David Bobroff]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a
section of music to indicate that it is played at one level the
first time and at the next level the second time?

fp is common, and I've seen pf. I've never seen f-p.

fp to me implies that the note have a strong attack, followed by
immediately pulling back the intensity.

That's <sfz> sforzando. fp is forte first time, p second time.

No, fp is "forte piano" which is start out 'forte' and immediately reduce
to 'piano'. Yeah, it's very similar to <sfz>. For "forte first time piano
second time" you should write f-p.

-David

[Mats Bengtsson]

Do you mean how it should be notated or how to get it in the MIDI output
from LilyPond?

For the notation, I usually write it like
1x f
2x p
below the staff, at least when I write it in by hand in an orchestral
part. I'm not sure if I have seen it in printed scores, though.

/Mats

Post by Edward Sanford Sutton, III
Is there a preferred way to have two different dynamics in a section of
music to indicate that it is played at one level the first time and at the
next level the second time?
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--
=============================================
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
Signals, Sensors and Systems
Royal Institute of Technology
SE-100 44 STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: ***@s3.kth.se
WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================

[David Bobroff]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Mats Bengtsson
Don't talk nonsense! The notation fp is common in lots of music
should be performed similarly to fz and sfz (exactly how it should
be performed depends on when the music was written and may also
vary from composer to composer.

I went to HDM, and it says "loud, followed by soft". I have only
seen it at the beginning of a repeated section, before the first note,
where the sense I gave it is perfectly clear. You may have seen
it often in the sense of sfz, but I have not. Clearly sfz is
preferable anyway?

Mats is right on this point. In fact, I just leafed through some of my
music and found, in one measure, two consecutive half notes each with fp on
them. It is not repeated music. fp, fz, fzp, sf, sfz, sfp, rf,
rfz....they're all out there. If you want to indicate that the dynamics
are different on repeats then they must be separated -> f-p, or f-p-mf, or
ff-p-mf or whatever your dynamic requirements are. For example, if you
want it \f and then \ff on the repeat you can't use \fff. Does it mean
fortississimo, forte and then fortissimo, or fortissimo and then forte?

-David

[Edward Sanford Sutton, III]

I meant notated and was thinking something along the lines of stacked
dynamics like lyric stanzas (or like you were mentioning) might be a way
it is professionally done; I was guessing. Is there a LilyPond way?

Lookup the section on text markup in the manual to learn how to
typeset two lines of dynamics.
(Please keep the questions on the mailing list.)
/Mats

Yea, its either that or look there to learn how to typset dynamic characters
as a markup, and setup a command to typeset the equiv of f-p (or whatever is
needed).
P.S. sorry about the wrong use of reply (again).
Ed Sutton